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  1. Tyrannocaster
    I see that Time doesn't offer any apologies for its own part in the great carb shift, but they had a big part in it with their own cover featuring Ancel Keys. So it's not really correct when they say "Why THEY were wrong". They really should have said "Why we were wrong". Fair is fair.
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  2. Carl
    30 years of time, and many millions of deaths, and untold misery, from the entire spectrum of autoimmune diseases that can be controlled very well with a smart diet. Never trust a man in a white coat!
    Reply: #56
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  1. Murray
    Kat, we have Saskatoon berries here in Canada, which seem to be similar to lingonberries. In early summer we pick (in order as they ripen) wild strawberries, wild raspberries and wild blueberries. (They are way behind this year because of the long winter, although I could smell hints of strawberry plants while mountain biking through the meadow yesterday.) The wild versions of these berries are a fraction of the size of the domesticated versions, more fibrous and less sweet, but more flavour. My hypothesis is that every berry has the same amount of flavour regardless of the size.
  2. Murray
    @GP, yes, I agree the science is still young and there is much to be learned about metabolic health. I am searching daily for insightful and credible guidance on optimizing health.

    It helps to bear in mind that there is a selection bias as to who regularly participates in this forum. Most have developed health issues from excess dietary carbs and much of the rest have found LCHF to have health benefits quite apart from avoiding ill effects from excess carbs. So few here are seeking info on how to thrive on high carbs. Sure it is possible, with appropriate genes and lifestyle, but it is not the main interest here. Further, many who appear on the surface to be doing well have latent problems developing. One study found a shocking number of Olympic athletes with very bad teeth, likely due to the high insulin load of carb loading. Dr. Tim Noakes who wrote The Lore of Running and ran over 70 marathons and ultra marathons developed type 2 diabetes from the carbs and now counsels limitation of carbs, depending on genetics and degree and type of activity. So high competitive performance on carbs may be a Faustian bargain.

    A growing number of science oriented types (Drs. Phinney, Volek, Noakes, Attia, D'Agostino, etc.) are focussing on how few carbs are required for high performance. Some day carb loading may be viewed the same way as we view Lance Armstrong's blood doping.

  3. 1 comment removed
  4. Galina L.
    I believe Lori's critics of Campbells's "LC fraud" last book (http://relievemypain.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/the-low-carb-fraud-review.html) should be as often citated as Denis Minger's analysis of his China study.
  5. Lori Miller
    There could have been some natural and artificial selection in places like Kitava and Japan for adaptation to higher-carb diets. Kitava is remote; Japan has had bugaboos about meat eating, and at times laws against it, for over a thousand years. Compare them to Native Americans, recent adopters of high carb diets who see some of the highest rates of diabetes in the world.

    I agree with Murray about some athletic carbophiles having health problems. When I was eating a lot of carb (~180g per day), I initially felt great and even lost weight. But I developed acid reflux, an esophageal ulcer, joint pain, and a mouthful of cavities. I needed four-hour naps every Sunday. I needed to eat every few hours. Even though I worked out hard six days a week, I started gaining weight. And even though numbers like cholesterol and blood pressure looked pretty good, I was unhealthy. It took years for those problems to develop; it took anywhere from days to several months for them to heal.

  6. jake3_14
    "Never trust a man in a white coat." Really?! That's you takeaway?! Then I suppose we shouldn't trust Hillaboe & Yerushalmy, John Yudkin, Peter Ahrens, Uffe Ravnskov, and more recently, Richard Feynman, who were all "white coats" who criticized Keys' and Stammler's lies.
    Replies: #57, #58
  7. FrankG
    I wouldn't trust any of the names you mention, simply on the basis that they had on a white coat or claimed to be "experts"... really! :-)
  8. Murray
    I think the expression about white coat is a twist on the logical fallacy of appeal to authority. So one should not trust anyone because they where a white coat. There are plenty of people who wear white coats you can trust, but not because they have been licensed to wear a white coat, especially when they wear a white coat as a mantle of authority to be obeyed and not questioned. But the white coat mantle is generally effective--I had "white coat hypertension" for years, until I started looking into health issues for myself.
  9. Ray
    I like this statement: " There are plenty of people who wear white coats you can trust, but not because they have been licensed to wear a white coat..."

    Unfortunately, those trustworthy individuals who wear a white coat must overcome the indoctrination they received to be licensed. Free thinking isn't a big part of the training, and there really don't seem to be many who succeed in being early adopters of new information. Also, there are huge disincentives for stepping outside the guidelines of standard medical practice.

  10. Kat
    ". I know not one or two people who embrace kinda high-carb diets and they have no problem staying at a low body fat percentage and be athletic."

    This is where I feel compelled to make you aware of the fact that the plural of anecdote is myth, not data.

    "Is this just carb-tolerance, carb-adaption or whatever? Isn't it a bit ignorant to say that when there actually might be some science behind it? "

    GP, you should probably make yourself aware of the research or at least try to process the replies we take the trouble to write to you. There is "actual science" behind what I told you as I said in my very first reply to you:

    "The work of Volek and Phinney has shown that doing well on a very low carbohydrate diet is a preserved trait. When subjects were put on a very low-carb diet, they all did very well (bio-markers and weight went in the right direction). As more and more carbs were added into these subjects' diet, the variance began to increase in lockstep with each additional increment of carbs (5g was the increment, I believe)."

    Jeff Volek and Stephen Phinney are scientists and those findings I just reposted because you aren't paying attention are from their own research. There's your science. You can start paying attention to it rather than the random musings in your head now.

  11. Kat

    As a child in Russia (before we moved to the USA), every day in the summer I picked wild raspberries, strawberries, and three different types of currants (black was my favourite). I miss them sooooo much and I do know exactly what you mean. My mouth waters as I write this I order my wild lingonberries frozen and they are gathered in Alaska. defrosted Lingonberries with a dollop of mascarpone = heaven!

    On a separate note, I remember as a child that I preferred to eat brains, marrow, nicely cooked connective tissue, caviar, liver, pickled herring and the cooked skin of the pork to bread, kasha, potatoes and other carbs as well as muscle meat. I refused to eat white bread at all (no taste. I didn't see the point). I still do prefer those things. It seems that we instinctively go for what we need as children - unless somebody hands us overly-palatable foods like doritos and french fries.

  12. Galina L.
    Kat, I am also from Russia, moved to Canada at 35 years old, to USA at 39 , and I have tastes similar to yours. My family always new to give me a fish head and a chicken skin, when a small child I kept asking "please, give me a sandwich without a bread". When I visit my mom in Moscow, the first thing I buy on a meat market - beef brains, and right now in my freezer are berries, imported from Russia and bought in a local Russian store - black currant, Russian cranberries and lingonberries. LCdiet perfectly suits may taste.
    Reply: #63
  13. Joey B
    You sure have strange taste I would faint if I saw brain on my plate!
    Replies: #64, #65
  14. Galina L.
    Many animals prefer brains to a muscle meat, it is a very nutritious food, many people who ate it from a childhood , love the taste. The taste is very similar how the spinal cord tastes in other animals, even in chicken. I have my own cultural food aversions like dog meat, insects, rats, even though I understand it is not logical. There are tastes and flavors I couldn't get used to in US like Dr.Pepper soda, wintergreen flavoring in a gum, Oreo cookies, abnormal amount of cinnamon in a pastry, sweet pickles. Local sweets are very safe for me - I don't like it. It is convenient.
  15. erdoke
    That's psychology not physiology...
    When I was a small child my favorites were after a village home pig slaughter: marrow from big bones (usually cooked in a soup), roasted kidney with brain and blood with onions. Chicken brain and testicles are also nice treats. ;o)
  16. Murray
    Okay Kat, Galina and erdoke, you have me hankering for brain. There is an Italian restaurant I go to that has lamb's brain, as thumb-sized pieces wrapped in prosciutto and cooked. Divine, if they don't overcook it. Also, I have bone marrow every day. My butcher gets local grass fed beef in season and there is a rush for the marrow. My butcher says a lot of cancer patients ask for it, so I try not to horde. I'm not sure why the cancer patients are after grass fed bone marrow in particular.

    There is good anthropological evidence and metabolic evidence that hominids became big eaters of brain. Ruminant skulls found at hominid midden sites have evidence of tool scratching to get brain out of skulls. Presumably they foraged from carcasses left after kills by large cats and learned to use stones to extract brain. This would have provided endogenous DHA in large quantity required to evolve a large brain. Another hypothesis is that shellfish were the source of DHA, which may also be the case, but there is clearly physical evidence of brain extraction.

    My grandmother made brain and other delicacies, as one did not waste anything in the Canadian prairies during the Great Depression. I confess I never developed a taste for kidney. I loved everything else, though.

    Kat, a friend reports he planted haskap bushes and is getting a bountiful harvest of berries. II gather these are derived from a Siberian berry bush. They are very hearty and some varieties for Canada have been bred at University of Saskatchewan. I'll be getting some bushes to plant this weekend and hope to have a good harvest next June.

  17. Kat
    Let us know how those bushes turn out, Murray!

    Galina, I too could never wrap my taste buds around soda. That stuff is unpalatable.

    The least nutritious and most boring part of any animal is the muscle meat. It also contains the least nutrients. Until the world became very rich, humans couldn't afford to be toss out any part of the animal and ate it tip to tale. Plus, the muscle meat is full of protein but low on fat. That's a great way to get sick and, knowing that, early humans (and not that early - tribes in the mid 20th century) preferred the entrails and fat to the lean meat, which they often fed to their hunting dogs. I have hearts, livers, kidneys and testicles and marrow bones in my freezer right now. And I'm on day three of a four day bone broth. Tomorrow when I take the bones out i'll be able to effortlessly break them with my hands.

    Reply: #68
  18. Galina L.
    Kat, I use a pressure cooker for making broths and cooking meats with a lot of connective tissue. My husband is a chemist, and he routinely calculates the time of chemical reactions , and the elevated pressure speeds up processes significantly. He told me that three hours in a pressure cooker for food translates into two days of regular cooking (may be 2.5 day, he said it to me couple years ago, I may not remember accurately). I love what such cooking does for bones - they became completely chewable. I also prepare meat jello out of pig feet regularly.
    I like the price of organ meats - it is the most affordable grass-fed meat in US so far. Just in case I stopped singing praises to a beef tong (I also use a pressure cooker on it), paleo movement may put in a danger my supply of cheap, healthy and tasty organs. I used to get grass-fed beef fat for free for two years, now I have to place a special order or it would be sold out before I come. I am ok with most people happily paying $12.99 for a lb of a prime stake meat, especially when they ignore what I like.
    Unfortunately, beef brains are illegally to sale in US, it is possible to buy pig brains made by Armour company in some stores or by special order, but it is less tasty.
  19. Kat

    "Meat jell-o"! Kholodets is one of my all-time favourite foods!!!!

    Don't worry about the Paleo people encroaching on your supply of organ meats. My background is economics and finance and I can help you with that. As demand grows there is upward pressure on price and the encourages producers to produce more of the products in demand. The additional supply coming onto the market will then drive the price back down. So, in the short run prices will increase, but if the market is allowed to work (nobody blocks the producers), prices will go back down in the long run as supply increases.

    However, I think we're safe with organ meats. Most Americans - Paleo or not - prefer muscle meat. If demand for muscle meat grows, they'll have to do something with the large supply of organ meat and that's good news for us because if supply grows relative to demand, you and I might benefit from lower prices on our favourites!! :-)

    Either way, we win!

    By the way, I just bought a water oven and I'm going to try cooking Sous Vide. I'll let you know how it goes. If you decide to try it, it's good to have someone like your husband around. My uncle is a chemist in Moscow. He makes his own booze (of course) and it's very inconvenient for me to try to explain things to me over skype. Boo.

    Reply: #70
  20. Galina L.
    Than you, Kat.
    I yet to try Sous Vide myself, so, please, share your experience. Yes, most of the people who live in US prefer muscle meat, and so far in many cases organs are just send to to the factories which produce animal food. We have organ meats in regular supermarkets in Florida, and mostly immigrants from Mexico and black people buy it. I recently asked an old black lady how she would cook pig feet I saw in her shopping cart . She told me she would cook it really long with not much water and with a lot of spices, it would be eaten on the side of cooked "greens". I thought - not a bad idea - warm kholodets as a side dish. I am sure my version would definitely contain some garlic.
    It is convenient to have a chemist in a family, as I noticed on many occasions. It doesn't prevent my husband from being a CICO guy.
  21. murray
    Kat and Galina, the Chinese seem to have also developed tasty cuisine using non-muscle parts of animals.


    Reply: #72
  22. Galina L.
    I believe Chinese cuisine influenced Russian cuisine a lot. The good example is Pelmeni ( tartaliny staffed with a raw ground red meat mixed with raw onion/garlic) which is considered a very native Siberian dish in Russia, but it looks like it came from China, together with many noodle dishes and quilted winter clothes (vatnik) and felt footwear(valenki).

    Many noticed the unusually high percentage of the people with Eastern European decent among LCarbers, my opinion it is due to the Mongolian occupation which lasted for 300 years while Western Europe was mostly spared. Mongols had different diet than Chinese - meat/fermented milk products.

  23. Greg
    This scam is nothing compared to the "science" predicting Global Warming. Hopefully that hoax gets exposed quickly.
  24. Kat
    Galina and Murray,

    Well, we were ruled by the Mongols for a couple hundred years. We got the word for money, trade, goods for trade, sundress and lots of others from them. Funnily, the word for "palace" is the word for "shed" in Russian. meh meh meh.

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