Dr McDougall in Shocking Vegan Interview


Let me start by saying this: Being a vegan is fine. I find the ethical arguments compelling and I’m impressed by people who manage to avoid animal products for ethical reasons. Also, I believe that most vegan food (supplemented by vitamin B12) is healthier than a standard Western diet.

That said, I was shocked when listening to a new interview with low-fat vegan advocate Dr John McDougall. A couple of days ago he was on Jimmy Moore’s podcast and, really, you have to hear it to believe it:

The LLVLC Show (Episode 686): Dr. John McDougall Pushes Starchy Diets For All

Here’s the problem:

Agricultural bliss?

Dr McDougall believes that everybody should eat a low-fat high-starch diet comprised of potatoes, rice, beans etc. and avoid meat, dairy and even olive oil. His main argument? Throughout “all of recorded history” every successful major civilization based their food intake on that kind of food.

That’s correct. It’s called agriculture.

Agriculture supplied the plentiful source of calories that allowed populations to grow big, starting 10,000 years ago or so. But that does not mean it’s healthy. Fossil records show a decline in human health and stature at the start of agriculture.

Furthermore, history did not start 10,000 years ago. Human evolution (depending on where you draw the line) has been going on for hundreds of thousands of years if not millions of years. Back then there was no agriculture.

Finally there were no vegan cultures, ever, during all of human history. People who completely avoided animal products for a long time died from vitamin B12-deficiency. So while agriculture supplied a lot of food it was never the only source.

Refined carbs

It’s quite possible that eating unprocessed starchy food like potatoes and rice, á la McDougall, is better than a standard American diet. After all, the refined carbs, processed food and enormous amounts of sugar are lost.

Jimmy Moore repeatedly tries to discuss this, but McDougall does. not. want. to. hear. it. He just won’t discuss that possibility.

Nasty personal attacks and hypocrisy

What’s really shocking on the podcast is the nastiness and the number of personal attacks. McDougall repeatedly brings up mr Moore’s weight struggles – “I’ve seen your pictures!” – as evidence that a high-fat diet does not work.

Then mr Moore tells him that he has lost 100 pounds eating like that and weighs less now than ever before in his adult life. McDougall’s answer? “You’re a study of one”, implying that it does not count, probably forgetting his own attack one minute earlier. Then McDougall repeats the personal attack again and again. I’m impressed that Jimmy Moore did not lose his temper.

McDougall’s next argument? “I’m a doctor and you’re not”, implying that it makes him right and mr Moore wrong. I wish life was that simple!

Low Carb vs. Plant Based

What shocked me even more was Dr McDougall’s repeated insistence that people watch a YouTube video called “Low Carb vs. Plant Based“:

It ranks among the most infantile things I’ve ever seen. Is this really the best argument Dr McDougall has? “I’m thin, you’re fat, therefore I’m right”?


The vegans in the video are *extremely* thin, good for them. However, I wonder if they wouldn’t benefit from more high-quality protein, to put on some muscle mass. That may be a matter of taste though.

By the way I’ve met professor Loren Cordain and Dr William Davis recently and they’re in fine shape. Check them out on the Dr Oz show earlier this year: Cordain / Davis. And Jimmy Moore is thinner than ever.

And let’s not mention the high-fat badass #1, Mark Sisson, who was somehow not chosen to appear in the video. Update: But he was on “Vegan Island” with Dr McDougall six years ago. Check out his report.

More reactions to the show:

Controversial Interview Raises Ire, Rises To Top Of iTunes Health Podcast Charts

What do you think about it?

Low Carb Made Easy How to Lose Weight Low-Carb Recipes Low-Carb Success Stories


Top Comments

  1. Martin,
    I believe that many of the diseases of civilization are caused by the Western diet, that's high in sugar and refined starch, among other things.

    I'm not at all surprised if most (maybe all) people switching from a Western junk diet to a low-fat vegan diet will improve.

    Basically the Western processed food diet may be the worst ever in history. That's why "all diets work". Switch from the worst one to any other and it's an improvement.

    Replies: #16, #270
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  2. Dan
    You know, there's another angle to this we should all remember--the rise of LCHF and the revelation of the good science behind it that refutes so much of the trendy-but-bad science that people like McDougall have been living off of for years (perhaps with good intent and just ignorance as their excuse--even "medical doctor" "qualified" ignorance is still dumb, y'know) means that many, many people who've been making a good living and a great deal of ego boosting fame out of that BAD science are now faced with a very real threat to their livelihoods and their egos. It is no different to note, as you've done on this site, the amazing hypocrisy of Coca-Cola sponsoring diet conferences than to see that a whole lot of McDougall's belligerence and attitude is because he's like any cornered animal--threatened, angry, and afraid. It doesn't make his position any more defensible or right, but perhaps it can help us to be a little less insensitive to his fear and anticipation of pain. Presuming, as we must unless we know otherwise, that he began his rise to prominence out of good intent and with honest motives, now that he's standing on top of, well, only slight joke re. the USDA intended, a "pyramid" whose foundations are crumbling and which he has to KNOW intellectually are at least threatened with utter collapse, no wonder he's so darned arrogant and angry! Granted, a more mature and self-enlightened person would have the grace that another one did in an earlier posting (sorry I forget the name) who told Gary Taubes "You were right, I was wrong." but most people aren't like that, alas. Basically, McDougall is in the position of the classic semi-joke statement "I'm not a brat! I'm NOT! I'm NOT! I'm NOT!" When "experts" with great prestige in the vegan/vegetarian community like him are this way, we certainly must expect even more nasty attitude from those lay people who've followed that misguided cause and invested not only money and effort into it but have, because like all such cults it demands and encourages this, invested a huge chunk of their self-identity and self-worth in it. I don't know about the rest of you, but I EAT a LCHF diet and feel better and am measurably healty for it, but I am NOT ANYTHING LIKE an "LCHF-ian" or an "LCHF-itarian" or whatever. My identity is based on my values and my character and not on my diet, but for Vegans and Vegetarians, that's not so. When you question what, to you as an enlightened sensible person, is their dietary science and choices, THEY HEAR you attacking them PERSONALLY. So let's not be too harsh on the sad case of Dr. McDougall, and let's remember this when we talk to less-famous folks who, like he has, simply got sold a bill of goods or wandered down the wrong path when searching for the truth.
    Replies: #138, #163
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All Comments

  1. robby
    No, its not--actually i tried that whole Atkins-low carb stuff and it gave me what doctors call Diabetic Ketosis because of all the meat I was consuming. I was like,"what--I thought".... Nor did
    my sugar levels drop.I actually gained weight. My buddy who had read something about this
    other doctor by the name of Barnard, went on a 21 day diet and lost close to 18 pounds. He continued to eat that way and lost another 30 pounds.

    Idont know but I think McDougall is on to something because I started to read the stuff my friend gave me and the literature referred to McDougall and to another Dr. named Esselstyn and how they treated their patients. I love and I mean love eating meat flavored dishes and different foods from all over, but the more I read I'm finding that what you add on to your foods like sour cream,mayo,ketchup(catsup)sweet fruit jams,butters all that messes up lets say a potato by itself.
    So, if you wonna eat low carb try it but I think eating more whole foods plant based is a little better in terms of overall health. I know giving up meat is hard, but giving up Life itself for a steak--well you do the low-carb math. (PS-Just finished reading this book called The China Study-it was a real interesting read)...

    Reply: #303
  2. leopotato
    What an absolutely ridiculous argument! How dare a doctor care about the animals of the world as well as his patients! Jera Jea, you need to give your head a shake!
  3. leopotato
    Wow Marie, I couldn't have said it more eloquently myself. You rock!
  4. barry
    I've followed both diets at different points throughout my life so I can give a logical unbiased personal observation of both. First I started out on the SAD diet, obviously unhealthy. Then I went vegan and saw a noticeable improvement in my energy and serum cholesterol. However I should make it perfectly clear I did NOT follow the starch solution diet, it was actually a high fat vegan diet. I ate lots of coconuts, avocados, nuts/seeds, olives, olive oil, acai berries etc. I feel that a starch diet whether vegan or not is dangerous, people in a insulin resistant state or with high triglycerides are only going to make things worse. I later switched to the primal blueprint diet by Mark Sisson and it really wasn't much different from my high fat vegan diet, just the addition of grassfed meats and wild fish, his diet along with paleo diet are actually plant dominate. After the switch from vegan to primal my cholesterol went up slightly but it was my HDL plus the total rise was to negligible for my doctor to even mention. I actually had my serum triglycerides to decrease from 71 to 42 after going primal, big plus there. Energy was still good after the switch, however if you're on a high carb diet either the SAD or high starch vegan then switching to using fat for energy will cause some initial side effects, but will soon dissipate. I think either diet will work as long as it remains high in fat and low in fructose. On to McDougall's theory of high starch though. One thing I can not believe anyone has mentioned (even this article) is what his diet plan excludes other than meat, that is the key. To anyone out there who has experienced benefits from the starch solution can be summed up into two points. First, the starch solution diet is very low in fructose, fructose causes weight gain not just at your waist but your organs too, case in point fatty liver disease. Both primal and starch solution have diets exceedingly low in fructose consumption. Second, doctor McDougall says vegetable/seed oils are off the menu, this is key. Anyone who has experienced heart problems would have improvements after giving up oxidized omega 6 fats. Also the fact that processed foods are removed means things like hydrogenated fat, MSG, HFCS, GMOs etc. are exempted as well. This starch diet though would be very disastrous to the morbidly obese and diabetics, or anyone with brain problems. Vegan diets work but they must be like another diet that works and be high fat as well. To anyone thinking of becoming vegan I recommend you follow doctor Mark Hyman's vegan plan. Since going primal I don't agree with everything he says, but his diet is a lot more nutritionally sound then McDougalls. As to why I personally switched from vegan to primal I just feel better with animal protein in my diet, and I feel mentally sharper. It's really difficult to get enough complete protein in your diet when vegan, whether high fat or not. I could've probably stayed on my high fat vegan diet and just supplemented with some hemp or pea protein in my mourning coffee an been just fine but I wasn't ethically bound to the diet anyways. Still going strong after 9 years of primal and 12 years of high fat! Either way vegan or omnivore high fat is the answer. I'm just one of hundreds of thousands who have experienced high fat's benefits. If your over weight give it try, you really got nothing to lose. If it doesn't work fine just go back, but I'm betting it will.
  5. health2all
    Just flat out too many unnatural foods being consumed. Preservatives, flavor enhancers, GMOs spliced into pesticides, hormones, artificial colors, etc... Sure! Stop eating this crap and you're bound to get healthier. Stay whole and natural. If you must, kill some flesh and burn it to pallitable. Enjoy, but know that one can survive, even thrive either with or without meats but not without vegetation. Plant foods are the base energy that are converted from our suns radiation to consumable life giving sustenance for all Gods creatures. I hope eventually we evolve to herbivores. If not, then I pray we are truly at the top of the food chain. Not only on this planet but in this universe.
  6. William
    Personal experience is the best teacher. Having been a vegetarian for 2 decades (age 29-51), I was an avid follower of the McDougall plan. I am athletic and in fact, a world elite masters athlete and 3x USATF National Masters Champion 400m sprinter, most recently in the 55-59 age group. My diet is part of a lifestyle that requires athletic performance, low body fat, and maximum strength / weight ratio. I can tell you straight out that for my needs, the McDougall plan is close to the worst possible diet for building strength and low body fat. There is NOTHING that will put fat on your body faster than starchy carbs like bread, pasta, potatoes, rice, etc... I am 5'7" and normally weigh about 147. When competing, I like to be 142-143 lbs. Where the McDougall diet may be good for an endurance athlete, sprinting is a whole body power sport requires strength and muscle maintenance. The protein needs for power sports and muscle development can not be met efficiently through vegetarian protein sources because they contain at least 50% (often more) carb calories. Tuna, for example, is packed with protein and is virtually fat and carb free. When I changed my diet and began supplementing with branch chain amino acids, I saw a boost in athletic performance. I am sprinting faster at age 55 than I was at age 51, have more strength and the fitness of a college athlete. I still race in college track meets. Also, it is recognized that sprinting and high intensity interval training is far better for fitness, especially over age 50, because of the strength and hormone stimulating effects (testosterone and hgh). Look, I ate the McDougall way for 20 years, was soft and over weight - up to 20 lbs heavier than I am now. Most of my vegan friends who eat this way are soft and overweight, if not obese. Doesn't work for everyone, unless 1) you're an endurance athlete or 2) you restrict calories very judiciously. It's bad science. The link between dietary cholesterol and heart disease is nebulous. The only meat I eat is seafood, you simply can not get carb-free protein from plants. Period. When I tried to share my experiences with the McDougall plan on the McDougall blog, I was banned immediately. Here is an article that traces the dubious link between dietary cholesterol and heart disease... and how it became part of the nutritional culture.
    Replies: #268, #304
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  8. Annleasa
    Erdoke, You seem to jump at the chance to put down a plant-based diet ever time someone posts a positive vegan lifestyle. smh, I don't get it. I was Paleo for years, off and on, and wow, when I changed to a vegan lifestyle, my world changed! At 62, I'm healthier than most of my military co-workers. There is only one plant based eater at work and the rest eat from paper bags bought from the usual crap joints. I reject your remark about the two vegans that are elderly and you say "You are old enough for that resolution and I really hope that there will be no health status which makes you change your minds. Good luck with and good health on the diet!"...WOW! First they are not on a 'diet' and secondly, I guarantee you are not as healthy as they are haha. And, you also put down the guy that is younger, and works out in a gym bench-pressing weight that blows my mind. If you Google or Bing search vegan athletes, you will be surprised at what you will find. I'm not sure what lifestyle you are on, however, you are defending a diet that has been proven to be ineffective (as I found) and I also know Paleo dieters that 'eat rice and potatoes' to keep up their strength. I found that when I was Paleo, I had shortness of breath, weakness and my blood results were not 'fantastic' either. They are now however, and I applaud all the Drs. that promote a healthy vegan lifestyle to save the lives of hundreds of thousands of people that suffer from the Standard American Diet (SAD)...and if you haven't heard, there is an entire plant based hospital in Washington DC that opened recently (2016)! Yep, there is something to this madness...have a great ethical day!
  9. Annleasa
    TMW, truer words were never spoken lol. When people are scared to try something that may be exactly what they need, they speak to the one thing that is obvious: Dr. McDougall said "I'm not fat, and you are" ...ohhh, that's so rude! But what if it was true? And the Dr. had a solution to that issue? How many people are overweight and morbidly obese? They know they are fat and no one needs to tell them that. They admit they are fat, but the minute a Dr. tells them that, then oh, snap, it's a war! Someone else said that we don't get B-12, well, there's a lot of omnivores that don't get the nutrition they need because animals are no longer allowed to graze, and the B12 is in the dirt as a bacteria, it gets in the grass and the cows graze on that. Animals are not inherently born with B12 in their bodies. Hmmmm...and there is a natural way to get it, it's called Nutritional Yeast, not 'bakers yeast' as I have seen in another post. Also there are other forms of B12. I take it in a spray solution and also eat 'Nooch' on a bunch of food. It takes a really long time to see the ill affects of B12 deficiency as we store it in our bodies for a long period of time, and it only takes a lil bit to last a long time.
  10. 1 comment removed
  11. Ruth
    I agree that the McDougall diet is extreme when it comes to the low fat intake. However, for people who struggle with their weight and health an "all-or-nothing" approach works better, since there is no risk of falling back into old habits like eating high-fat junkfood (a lot of junkfood is vegan by the way!)

    The McDougall diet recommends a low fat intake of 10% for the purpose of weightloss. These 10% should come from natural whole foods and not from oil or refined and processed food. Personally, for me the 10% don't work. I had to adjust eating 15-20% fat. Meaning, I include more nuts and seeds and I occationally eat peanut butter or tahini. OCCATIONALLY is the key word. People who are used to a standard western diet do not know what occatinally means since most things are available to them all the time.

    In my opinion Dr. McDougall has some valuable points concerning the vegan diet. Even today, most people eat a vegan diet (Africa, middle East, Asia, Southamerica). However, those countries who mainly eat a diet based on animal products, high in fat and sugar and progessed food, are those who suffer mostly from chonical deseases. Yes, in Africa, Asia and Southamercia, still a lot of people die. But they usually die from poor hygiene, sicknesses and or from causes like AIDS and HIV.

    The author of the article above insists that the human history didn't start 10'000 years ago when agriculture started to evolve. Over the last 10'000 years, humans have started to adapt to the agricultural way of living. Therefore, it can't be a solution to say "we must go back to the days before agriculture" since one reason for the successful survival of the human race is agriculture. Nowadays, eating meat, diary and eggs is dangerous, because we don't get it from healthy wild animals, but from sick, breaded and with antibiotics and other chemicals filled domestic animals. In conclusion, it is more healthy to stick to a vegan diet that to eat meat, diary and eggs since we are much more likely to die from the unhealthy animal products than to die from eating vegetables, fruits and starches.

    For me the change to a vegan diet helped a great deal. I lost weight, my period cramps disappeard, I had more energy to study, work and do sports, I stopped having pimples and oily skin and I CAN EAT AS MUCH FOOD AS I LIKE WITHOUT GAINING WEIGHT! All other diets restrict on calories or potion sizes and it often left me hungry and craving for more food. So I naturally went back binging on Sweets and fatty food. The McDougall diet solved a lot of issues besides my weight. That's something no other diet was capable of doing.

    People will agree or disagree on the low fat high carb vegan diet. However, once they try it out, will soon recognise that the diet is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than a Western style diet and that their health will improve within 3-4 month without much effort.

  12. Matt
    I'm not going to get into why I mostly disagree with this. I will just say, bullshit on your "no society has ever been vegan or they would die of B12 deficiency." B12 does not magically appear in animals. Animals are in fact fortified with B12 so when you eat their dead bodies you are consuming that mineral. B12 is found in bacteria, which is washed away now in our ultra-sterile environment. Either you don't know this or you are purposely misleading people. Neither inspires much confidence.
    Reply: #274
  13. Johan
    I have never seen more anger and hate on the internet as I have seen from vegans. Also the things they say and call it science is often laughable. The blatant lies they tell. The problem is that veganism is a fanatical religion. I get the ethical arguments for veganism, but I do not get vegans.
  14. David
    Have you seen Jimmy lately?

    And therein lies the proof of Dr. McDougall's assertions.

    Reply: #266
  15. Mel
    Im not a Vegan , I love my meat but Im considering Dr Mcdougalls plant based program. Its not just about losing weight its also about improving your health and reversing disease. Sure you may lose weight on paleo or low carb high fat diets but I dont see any research that show that they reverse disease such as Dr Mcdougall claims with a plant based diet, so I sm hoing to give it a go before putting him down like done oeople have done even though they havnt tried it. Mel
    Reply: #283
  16. Jimmy
    Have you seen Dr. McDougall lately? He is very frail and thin. It looks like his starch diet has caught up with him.
  17. Jane Grayson
    Dr McDougall is not frail, you obviously have no clue about what he has overcome! Also he is in great shape for someone that is late 60s early 70s, still working! I am following his starch solution and losing average 500gms a week as well as heaps of energy and can work in the garden a lot longer than I used to on meat and dairy. I am feeling healthier than I ever have and not hungry, this is the best lifestyle I have ever known. I can actually do this and enjoy life while getting healthy. Thank you Dr McDougall!
  18. Tiffany
    Thank you for your information William. I would be interested to hear more about your diet.
  19. Caleb
    Hi FrankG,

    I read an article on "5 Potential Problems With Vegan Diets". In the comments (dated a few years ago), you elegantly handled the debate with some of the finest points I have ever read.
    I wish Dr. Eenfeldt and Dr. Malhotra wouldn't give Veganism such the pass that they do. Yes, nutrionally, it may be "less evil" than a typical Western diet, but the 2 doctors should get educated about the circle of life, the destruction of the earth by annual monoculture crops, etc..
    FrankG, if you would kindly email me, I'd love to keep in touch.

    (basinger at mac dot com)

  20. Rick Stewart
    I agree. This is why the Blood Type Diet works for so many people. All of the blood type diets are healthier than the SAD. You could pick any one of them and get healthier.
  21. 1 comment removed
  22. hman
    Fwiw. I went thru a sextuple bypass. I was overweight, hbp, hbs, and all other bad markers. I started with a raw type diet of my own design. Ahhh, kinda worked. I stumbled on the McDougall plan and wow. I've dropped 20lbs, lowered all numbers, off ALL meds. and have way more energy. I think the key to this approach is the no oils and no dairy. It made a HUGE difference for me. Is EVERY diet good for EVERYONE? HELL NO. You would have to be a special kind of taterhead to believe that. The McDougall plan helped ME. Really, that's the ONLY person that matters. Will it help YOU?
    Reply: #273
  23. bill

    So if you're on this site, you must still be
    looking for something. Is McD not working
    for you?

  24. Lulubel
    Spot on!
  25. Lulubel
    The Blue Zones simply remove all relevance of high fat, low carbs. There is no long lived society that eats this way. The sweeping and false statements in the article demonstrate the lack of ethics and knowledge of the writer. It was very weak and laughable.
  26. Thomas
    Could I just draw peoples attention to a couple of historical facts that should be an 'inconvenient truth to the "Starch Solution" people. Potatoes are indigenous to the Andes in South America and only came to Europe in the 1500's. So couldn't possibly been in the diet for the rest of the world for 'thousands of years'. Likewise with rice it originated in Ancient China and slowly spread through South East Asia as the Chinese did. It didn't arrive in Europe until Alexander the Great headed west after his crusades in the far east around 330 BC. Again, how could the rest of the people have been eating rice for thousands of years? Dr McDougall has no credibility or authority and uses ridicule as a weapon against those who dare speak up to him. (similar to Keys behaviour in the 60's and 70's)
  27. Jon
    Do you notice that the long term promoters of the plant based diet are all healthy and thin even in old age. Note Dr Campbell age 82. Dr Esselstyne. Age 82.
    John Mcdougall age 69. Healthy and thin after having a stroke age 18. After living on a high meat and dairy diet at the time.
    It's not a coincidence, there are hundreds of studies proving it. But try convincing people who are addicted to the health and environment destroying high animal product diets.
  28. Lerakant
    "Finally there were no vegan cultures, ever, during all of human history. People who completely avoided animal products for a long time died from vitamin B12-deficiency."

    This is really disingenuous. Actually it is pea-brained stupid. Dumb. A lie.

    B-12 ain't made in animals, so it isn't necessary to eat animals to get it. It is made in the soil, and animals that eat plants (grass) withat washing them first (oh, dirty unhygeinic animals) get it thusly. In prehistoric times, before we washed our plany foods, we got it (along with parasites etc, hence it is a good idea to wash veg, in packhpouse and at home) but that is scarcely a good excuse for eating stuff that will kill you. TAKE YOUR NONSENSE OFF THE INTERNET.

  29. Jon
    Lerakant good point. B12 depletion in modern society comes from soil depletion and washing produce etc. B12 deficiency is common in modern society. It happens to vegans and meat eaters as well. Most meat eaters wouldn't be aware that b12 supplementation is put into animals food. In the absence of returning to living off food produced in rich soil. One would be wise to take a b12 supplement and avoid the perils that come from a high meat diet.
  30. 1 comment removed
  31. Juan
    The plant based side of the argument can provide you with documented evidence, case after case, of people reversing, curing their heart disease, diabetes cancer.. Etc on a healthy plant based diet. People who opted not to go through the heart surgery, the bypass, the stints, and chose to adopt a diet like the one Dr mcdougall and Dr essylstein promote, and cured themselves.

    Blocked arteries full of plaque completely cleaned out, repaired, by a plant based diet. Show me the cases of people who adopted a low carbs high fat diet and cured themselves of arteosclorosis? Cleaned and repaired their arteries eating low carb - high fat? Show me the X-ray's, Ctscan images and documented cases, testimonials, of such people?

    "My doctor told me I had 90 percent blockage and I needed to go to surgery immediately but I opted to eat a plant based diet and 8 months later my arteries were almost clear of plaque. Now two years of eating this way, my arteries are completely free and clear of any blockages. "

    There are many documented cases, testimonials like the above on the plant based side. Where can I find such examples for the low carb - high fat side of the argument? Good luck.

    I had malignant hypertension. 217/137, 180/110. For about 20 years I had hypertension and then in my early 40s, that hypertension got out of control. No matter how many pills I took, my systolic was always above 180 and my diastolic was never under 110.

    In September of 2016, this year, I woke up at 3am, with some really bad chest pain. I felt like my chest was caving in. My heart was racing, I had to breath deeply, I was struggling for air, I got up and started pacing around my room, "Is this a heart attack?"...The ambulance came and my blood pressure was 217/137. They took me to the hospital and they managed to stabilize me and for two days they ran a battery of tests, stress test.. Etc. Diagnosis, I was suffering from pre-diabetes and my severe hypertension was causing me serious angina. I had an angina attack. No blockages in my arteries, but really really bad high blood pressure and angina as a result of the extreme pressure.

    I got on the mcdougall plan. I practically cut out all fat from my diet. The staple of my diet is sweet potatoes, potatoes and beans. I eat plenty of greens / lettuce, broccoli..I eat bananas, grapefruit fruit, oranges... No bread, occasional corn tortillas / home made burritos.

    I eat one or two bananas for breakfast, with a grapefruit and a bottle brand (won't mention the brand), green smoothie.

    Results: I've lost 30 pounds in two months and a half. I'm off my blood pressure meds, after almost 20 years of taking them. My systolic average is 112, my diastolic in the early 70s, often in the 60s.

    I work construction and I notice ( and others as well), that I'm like the Energizer Bunny when I'm out there. I just don't stop.. I don't get tired. I don't even need to eat more than a banana or two for lunch, but I normally eat a potatoe or sweet potatoe with black bean soup with a banana and I'm good to go till evening.

    I feel better than ever and I sleep like a baby. No more angina attacks.

    Reply: #282
  32. Apicius
    Juan, where do you get your vitamin b12? Since you don't eat meat, you need to get it from somewhere. What other supplements and medications are you on? I suspect the doctor put you on Statins?
  33. Susan
    It is wrong to think you can never be a vegan if you love meat. I LOVED meat/dairy/eggs, but after watching enough videos/reading enough in books and online while helping my daughter with a college paper, I was ready to make the change. We were horrified to learn what happens to animals as they go from the factory farm to our plate. We were vegetarian for 2 years, then vegan since January 2016. I had no idea how awful it is... like a Saw horror movie times a thousand. Now, I can tell you I am healthier than ever, eat more variety of foods than ever, and I am not deprived. Vegans love food! They have replicated a lot of what we used to eat, only without the cruelty. And for those stressed out about B-12?? Buy a bottle, open cap, pop the plastic, pop pill in mouth, drink down with water. Easy! Sheesh..
    Replies: #284, #285
  34. Tim
    My food eats your food...More meat for me...:-)
    Reply: #299
  35. Apicius
    Susan, Not sure it is fair to conclude that people who eat meat are cruelty proponents. For instance, I personally seek farmers who raise their animals cruelty free (pasture raised, organic, etc). In fact, I also seek farmers who slaughter the animals in the most humane way. I personally get to know the farmers, and they are passionate of the quality work they do. They arrange for transport to the slaughterhouse that does not take more than a couple of hours, and they are present the whole time, making sure the situation is calm. Of course, I pay A LOT of money for this type of least 10X the normal price you see at supermarkets. But, I feel it is worth it. It's the closest I can get to how my ancestors ate meat, where the animals were free to roam pastures, and all in a sudden, they get killed with an arrow or spear out of the blue. Minimizing suffering and panic. I also eat TONS of fish, which displaces a lot of my meat consumption. I truly believe that what I'm doing is extremely ethical, put lots of research, money and empathy behind my decision. And I take offence to your broad brush stroke of marking others who don't eat like you as evil degenerates. I also do not cast judgement on others who don't eat the way I do (like people who can only afford buying meat at the supermarkets). Not everyone makes the salary that I I don't begrudge them of their choice. They seek nutrition for their family. It is my hope that farming becomes more humane in the future. For now, I'm voting with my dollars and supporting the wonderful farmers who are passionate at doing the right thing.
  36. 1 comment removed
  37. Tim
    Applying human qualities, such as 'humane', to animals is quite silly. Watch how a cat plays with a mouse sometime...
    Extremist humane treatment proponents, nowadays, is more about virtue signalling than anything else. I'm better than you's a religion. That, and city people are mostly quite ignorant about agriculture. Most of them can't even put down their own pets when it's time, they have to hire someone. Quite weak people for the most part.
  38. Juan Bilbao
    Tim.. Animals use to get all of their B12 from soil, when they ate grass. In the past, before we sanitized, thoroughly washed everything we ate, we got most of our B12 from plants not meat. Today the soil is so depleted that the meat industry, will actually supplement the meat they sell with B12 vitamins. They inject it into the meat.

    So if you eat meat, you bought at the supermarket, you're essentially eating meat that is being enhanced with B12 "artificially". More, everybody today, due to the food industry we rely on, industrial agriculture, is vitamin depleted, mineral depleted, in one way or another. Whether you're vegan or low carb.

    This I will say however, when you rely on a healthy wholefoods vegan diet/plant based diet, you are eating a lot more minerals (potassium, calcium, magnesium.. Etc), than if your diet consists of high fat and little carbs. And forget about reversing congested heart failure, arteoschlorosis/blocked arteries..etc, such miracles have been proven to occur, time and time again with people who adopt a healthy wholefoods plant based diet, not a high fat-low carb diet.

    So I'll just take a b12 pill every once in a while and continue enjoying a diet that keeps my cardiovascular system, my arteries, free of plaque.

    Replies: #291, #292
  39. Juan Bilbao
    Tim, as far as your comments about vegans and animal rights. The meat industry has made the slaughter of animals for profit, extremely in humane.I didn't adopt a plant based diet to save the animals, I did to save my self. But many vegans, the animal rights crowd, do make some valid points about how cruel our slaughter practices are.

    I hope that in the future we don't get visited by an extraterrestrial race that eats meat, because they might end up slaughtering us to satisfy their palets, and when we complain, they'll simply remind us of how we treat other animals, even animals from our own planet.

  40. Juan Bilbao
    I just noticed it was Apicius who asked the question about b12, not Tim.
  41. Tim
    More vegetarian fables, it's not at all common to have a need to inject B vitamins into cattle. I've raised cattle for years and have never had to to use B vitamins. B12 is produced in the rumen and B12 deficiency is very unlikely in ruminants unless cobalt is deficient.$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/beef11680
    Thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, pantothenic acid, folic acid, vitamin B6, vitamin B12, biotin and choline are essential B-vitamins for all animals, including cattle. B-vitamin concentration of the diet usually has very little influence on the B-vitamin status of cattle. Bacteria in the rumen synthesize most B-vitamins in excess of the probable requirements. Microbial synthesis of most B-vitamins increases with increasing energy intake, so is generally higher for grain compared to forage diets. If B vitamins are added to the diet, rumen bacteria either reduce B vitamin synthesis, resulting in no net change to supply, or destroy the added B-vitamins. Depending on the B-vitamin, virtually none to a high proportion of the dietary B-vitamin may escape ruminal degradation (15). Choline is completely destroyed in the rumen. Whereas cattle can accumulate nutritional reserves of vitamins A, D, and E, storage of B vitamins is limited, except for vitamin B12.

    Cattle with reduced intakes due to stress or disease may suffer from short-term B-vitamin deficiencies, due to reduced synthesis, increased requirements, and limited reserves of B vitamins within the body. Preliminary evidence suggests that activating the immune system to fight off infection or develop immunity rapidly depletes B-vitamins important to the immune response (3).

  42. Apicius
    What the....? What kind of psychobabble are you stating? Injecting animals with B12? Is this a joke? Can you please provide a medical or scientific source where you get this? And I mean a peer reviewed paper...not random psychobabble that comes up with google search.
    Just like Tim, I too grew up on a farm...and injecting animals with B-12? I have never, ever heard of it.
    So, think about this...if you take B-12 vitamins...what source does it come from? How is it made. What Frankenstein chemical process is it made from or what animal product is it extracted from?

    And, what other medications are you guess is Statins is included in your cocktail of meds and supplements. I already asked before, and you didn't answer. So, I suspect you avoided answering it.

  43. Sonny
    Not sure how anyone can advocate for a high fat diet given the overwhelming studies and scientific evidence showing that consumption of refined oils damage the endothelial cell lining of arteries and also lower the oxygen carrying potential of blood through thickening and coagulation. There are many, many unhealthy vegans out there because they consume far too much fat and refined sugars. After all, potato chips and french fries are vegan foods are they not?

    Veganism is a dogma. Dogma is bad. Vegans don't eat honey, how crazy is that? Because, somehow, it's cruel to the bees. I've never heard more nonsense in my life. My grandfather was a beekeeper and he treated his bees like they were his own children. We enjoyed wonderful honey my entire life and it didn't come at the cost of abusing bees. Some vegans need to have their heads examined.

    If you are going to eat fats, eat them in their natural form - as olives, avocados, nuts and seeds. Minimize the intake of refined oils as much as possible. They are not healthy and the verdict has been in for several years on that point. WHOLE FOODS PLANT-BASED. Simple words to adhere to.

    Reply: #294
  44. Apicius
    Where did you see that the high fat diet that this diet doctor site is advocating is pro refined oils? The LCHF (low carb high fat) diet employs NATURAL fats, like avocados, egg yolks, lard, extra virgin olive oil, heavy cream, nuts, fatty cuts of meat like ribeye steak and pork belly, fatty fish like salmon, chicken with the skin on, etc. The LCHF diet is completely opposed to the use of Frankenstein man made fats like corn oil, vegetable oil, cottonseed oil, soya oil, hydrogenated fats, margarine, etc. Where did you get your false information?
  45. Juan Bilbao
    Apicius, I didn't say animals are Injected with B12. Read it again. Here is an interesting link on the b12 issue:

    (I also have my links and studies)..

    B12 is a non-issue:

    Replies: #296, #297, #298
  46. Tim
    This quote from your link is totally false...

    In order to maintain meat a source of B12 the meat industry now adds it to animal feed, 90% of B12 supplements produced in the world are fed to livestock.

    as the following link points out...$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/beef11680

    B-vitamin concentration of the diet usually has very little influence on the B-vitamin status of cattle. Bacteria in the rumen synthesize most B-vitamins in excess of the probable requirements. .....Vitamin B12 is manufactured by rumen bacteria. It contains a trace mineral, cobalt, which must be provided in the diet. Cobalt concentrations in feeds are not well known and therefore ruminant diets are supplemented with cobalt at approximately 0.1 ppm to ensure adequate production of vitamin B12, which is too costly to add directly to feedlot diets.

    If B vitamins are added to the diet, rumen bacteria either reduce B vitamin synthesis, resulting in no net change to supply, or destroy the added B-vitamins.

  47. Tim
    And your other link uses this link as a source, which says...

    This anemia can also happen if you don't eat enough foods with B12, but this is rare. People who eat a vegan diet and older adults who don't eat a variety of foods may need to take a daily vitamin pill to get enough B12.

    Vitamin B12 is found in foods from animals, such as meat, seafood, milk products, poultry, and eggs. It is not in foods from plants unless it has been added to the food (fortified).

  48. Apicius
    Really, Juan...they inject meat with B-12...even more BS. Where do you get your info...Dr. Google?

    And by the way, you still didn't supply peer reviewed scientific evidence for your BS. What you did instead was provide links to psychobabble links on the internet. Those are not peer reviewed scientific's psychobabble that ANYONE can write and post on the internet.

    For example, your first link looks like it comes from a journal...but, it's actually a journal to an alternative medicine "wellness" center, spreading their psychobabble.

    Your second link comes from an activist website, that is sponsored by a herbal and alternative medicine products manufacturer

    So, you have still come up short...but continue to provide more website psychobabble...still waiting for your scientific evidence.

    Oh, yeah. You are still avoiding to answer my original question. What other cocktail of supplements and medicines are you on? Apart from B-12 supplement, I suspect you are on statins and other medicines? Avoiding answering the question I see...

  49. ann
    Kinda makes you realize that animals are smarter than meat eating people! People eat animals, yet animals eat a plant based diet!!! LOL I think the animals are onto something! ha!

    My food eats your food...More meat for me...:-)

    Reply: #301
  50. Jay
    Vegan is a religion of sorts, I think plant based-low fat is more logical. I think eating plants as the base of a diet is smart and adding little fat and some animal products to flavor a dish allows for B-12 and other nutrients in small doses, like eating meat once or twice per week in small portions. So while one would consume a majority of their calories and intake from plants it is not almost religious based and would drop the use of animal products so low that animals could be raised in a ethical manner and the planet would also be better. There is no doubt a plant based diet is the best diet, look at all the cultures that live the longest and have the least disease and you will find very minimal animal products and a lot of fruits, veg and starches as well as nuts, seeds and beans. I think your fooling yourself if you think you can eat tons of meat and not be at risk of colon cancer and other disease. On the other hand I think you can use animal products in a responsible way (very small amounts) and also be healthy. I find Vegans to be religious sometimes e.g. no honey or the use of any animal products however in the same sense factory farming is wrong and abusing animals is also wrong. Sort of a rant but I feel both sides have some blame and to say either is the only way is a bit closed minded but again plant based diets are backed by science, please see Japan, Africa and in the US the 7th day Adventists. I'm sorry but throwing down bacon and meats in big portions is dangerous and I think deep down people know it....
  51. Patrick
    Ann, I'm not convinced that having a 4 chamber stomach makes a ruminent smarter than me, however, I won't dismiss the possibility!
  52. Kevin
    I'm very impressed with Dr. Mcdougall's books and diet. The info may be a little repetitive, but the recipes are very good and use easy to find ingredients. It's not boring to eat that way. There is a much wider range of veggies, fruits and grains than there are meats. To each his own, but I'd rather eat that diet than to court heart disease, stroke, diabetes and so on. We have a huge problem in healthcare costs in this country, to talk disparagingly of a diet that would help is irresponsible.

    Check them out on the Dr Oz show

    Yeah, no I don't think so.

  53. Joel
    Robbie, you didn't have "diabetic ketosis". Diabetic ketoacidosis dangerous state which can occur in type 1 diabetics due to lack of insulin.
  54. Jim
    April 25 2016
    Personal experience is the best teacher. Having been a vegetarian for 2 decades (age 29-51), I was an avid follower of the McDougall plan. I am athletic and in fact, a world elite masters athlete and 3x USATF National Masters Champion 400m sprinter, most recently in the 55-59 age group. My diet is part of a lifestyle that requires athletic performance, low body fat, and maximum strength / weight ratio. I can tell you straight out that for my needs, the McDougall plan is close to the worst possible diet for building strength and low body fat. There is NOTHING that will put fat on your body faster than starchy carbs like bread, pasta, potatoes, rice, etc... ..."

    I am curious to hear more, as I don't believe your story, not one bit. The McDougall plan is practically a starvation diet unless you add lots of nuts and avocados or eat a ton of starch. You have to eat 2 kg of plain potatoes just to get 2000 kcal. That's a lot of taters. How could you possibly have been "soft" and fat on a high starch, low fat vegan diet, especially as an athlete!?

  55. Trevor
    Dr Weston Price, although half-hoping to find a vegan traditional culture in his world travels during the 1920s-30s, NEVER DID because any attempts went EXTINCT. Dr McDougall is a closed-minded, ignorant, arrogant bombast who cannot see that the masses subsistence-living on basic grains and pulses are dietarily dumbed-down and actually CRAVE animal products when they can get them!

    The solution: eat as much fat and protein as you can, plus carbohydrates in moderation, depending on your personal insulin response. Avoid feedlot meat, pork and modern seed oils. The ancients thrived on olive oil, even using it for ablutions. McDougall claims Roman soldiers eschewed meat before battle, which was nonsense; they would never have had the strength to build their empire as vegans!

    Mark my words: Dr McDougall is frail at 69 and will not see out the US average of 78.8 years. If you want to live longest, eat Japanese-style!

  56. Trevor
    The great, level-headed Mark Sisson puts us right ...

    ... a type-2 diabetes outbreak in the making indeed!

  57. hank
    You don't put on muscle mass by eating "high quality protein". You put on muscle mass by having excess calories and hormones (and exercise obviously).

    The difference between female body builders and male body builders is quite large. But it's not because the women aren't eating as much protein. It's because they don't have the same hormones, and the ones that take steroids and various growth hormones they're able to get as large as the men(who are usually on juice too).

    There are plenty of vegan body builders who aren't eating anywhere near as much protein as a typical meat eater, such as Barney du Plessis, who are able to get very very large.

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