Diabetes disaster in China

Diabetes

A new study shows that 11.6 percent of Chinese adults have diabetes.

“Diabetes in China has become a catastrophe,” said Paul Zimmet, honorary president of the International Diabetes Federation […] “The booming economy in China has brought with it a medical problem which could bankrupt the health system. The big question is the capacity in China to deal with a health problem of such magnitude.”

Bloomberg: China ‘Catastrophe’ Hits 114 Million as Diabetes Spreads

China is already worse off than the US where diabetes prevalence is about 11.3 percent. But it’s just the beginning. This is happening fast as China is modernizing and Chinese people are getting access to unlimited amounts of Western junk food, including sugar and rapidly digested starches.

Chinese people are getting diabetes at much lower weight than Western people. And the study shows more ominous statistics: In addition to the 11.6 percent with diabetes, another 50.1 percent has pre-diabetes.

Among young Chinese adults aged 18-29 about 40 percent has pre-diabetes and are on the verge of getting the disease. Thus one in four young Chinese adults risk a future of diabetes complications like early heart disease, blindness, dialysis and amputations.

This is not a problem for the health system. There’s no antidote to unlimited amounts of the poison causing this epidemic. The problem that needs to be fixed is in the food supply.

More

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Surprise: More Sugar, More Diabetes

The Doctor Asked: “What Have You Done?”

Dr Attia at TEDMED: What if We’re Wrong About Diabetes?

Failed Attempt to Cure Diabetes at Subway

Nearly 1 in 4 U.S. Teens Has Diabetes or Prediabetes!

All about diabetes

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63 comments

  1. mezzo
    Is there a reason why Chinese people get diabetes at lower weights than Western people?
    Replies: #5, #21
  2. Drew
    Welcome to the first world, here's your tote bag full of diseases...
  3. RJ Lee
    Perhaps it's the instant noodles and the heavy corn oils used in all the cooking.
  4. Kim
    I'm sure T. Colin Campbell will blame it on meat or fish consumption.
  5. FrankG
    Once you realise that Type 2 Diabetes is not caused by obesity but that both are symptoms of the same underlying Metabolic Disorder, it then becomes reasonable to expect that different body types may display those symptoms in different ways.

    For example it seems significant if the excess fat mass is being stored just under the skin (subcutaneous), or in and around the internal organs (visceral). The latter is obviously less visible but more deleterious to health.

    The Asian phenotype seems to lend itself more to the visceral fat storage while still presenting as outwardly "lean".. so the metabolic damage may go unnoticed until it is too late.

    Of course these are generalisations and do not readily apply to the individual but rather at the population level; which is where these statistics are derived.

  6. LyndaS
    It would be interesting to know if they are experiencing more Alzheimer's ("type 3 diabetes") as well .
  7. Zepp
    Could it be all the rise they eats, Chinese seems to be extra sensitive to it?

    "CONCLUSION:
    Higher consumption of white rice is associated with a significantly increased risk of type 2 diabetes, especially in Asian (Chinese and Japanese) populations."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22422870

  8. Clare
    Rice was their staple food..... 1 cup full was their daily ration in some areas
    The Chinese rice bowl was not large
    Western diets are to blame the world over
    Too Much food and too much of the wrong foods
  9. Paul
    Few weeks ago I talked to a top-USA-school-educated Chinese MD, PhD obesity researcher, who said about obesity in China, and I quote: " they just simply eat to much". He himself is a vegetarian (with a pronounced visceral fat deposits) and blames chinese epidemic solely on the increase in the saturated fat consumption. My timid suggestion, that maybe it is dietary carbohydrates, which play the key role, met with his sincere outburst of laughter. So now, in accordance with ying-yang theory, I laugh reading the above story.
  10. greensleeves
    "The Asian phenotype seems to lend itself more to the visceral fat storage while still presenting as outwardly 'lean.' "

    This comes about due to the EDAR gene, which almost all Far East Asian people carry.

  11. murray
    My understanding is that cooked rice that is allowed to cool and sit for a day transforms from a high-glycemic starch into low-glycemic resistant starch that is also prebiotic. Perhaps with prosperity has come the convenience of rice cookers and freshly hot rice for meals. In principle, there could be a diabetes epidemic resulting from the way food is prepared without a substantial transformation in the types or even amounts of food that are eaten.
  12. pup
    Well, this story does help explain this equally disturbing trend in China...

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/bellybelly

  13. Monique
    Wow, very interesting. Great article to direct all those "Asians-are-skinny-on-a-high-carb-diet!" advocates to.
  14. Richard lowfat4ever
    The IMPACT-model showed that in Beijing where the rates of coronary heart disease mortality increased by more than 100% between 1984 and 1999, around 77% of the increase was explained by an increase in serum cholesterol following a five-fold increase in intake of meat and eggs.
    http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/110/10/1236.long

    It was observed that in the 1960s the rates of coronary heart disease of the nomads from Xinjiang in northern China who largely subsisted on pasture raised animal foods was more than 7 times higher than that of other populations both within Xinjiang and throughout China which had a much lower intake of animal fat
    http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=688245

    A recent modelling study from Tunisia showed similar message. Tunisia has recently experienced a significant increase in coronary heart disease mortality, of which half of this increase has been explained by an increase in serum cholesterol following a transition from the traditional wheat based diet to a diet richer in animal protein and fat. In rural area's of Tunisia, wheat intake is still 3-fold bigger compared to urban parts of the country, this is followed by significantly lower rates of heart disease mortality observed rural Tunisia.
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.00...

    Reply: #15
  15. Dr. Andreas Eenfeldt, MD Team Diet Doctor
    Richard,
    Sure. And speaking of statistics, don't forget that Facebook cancelled out the cholesterol-lowering effects of Justin Bieber:

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/kjh2110/the-10-most-bizarre-correlations

  16. Karen Davies
    Could it be down to the Chinese now eating a more "American Diet" loads of refined carbs, lots of frankenwheat, high sugar and highly processed oils...all of which are new to their diets, which historically were very healthy.
    Anyone read "Wheat belly" by Dr William Davis? Its all explained in there....
  17. Richard low4ever
    Doc,

    statistics must be always perceived through what is biologically plausible. The findings I referred from China are highly plausible in terms of biology. People born with rare genetic mutations that provides exceedingly low cholesterol levels throughout the life show no sign of atherosclerosis at autopsy and live much longer than their peers (apart from the most extreme cases of homozygot hypobetalipoproteinemia).
    http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=360289

    A meta-analysis of 108 lipid intervention trials with 300,000 participants and a mean follow-up of only three years found that for each 1 mmol/l (38.7 mg/dl) reduction in LDL cholesterol, coronary heart disease and all-cause mortality was reduced by 24% and 15% respectively, independent of HDL cholesterol, triglycerides and non-lipid effects of specific interventions.
    Comparatively, a meta-analysis of mendelian randomization studies with more than 312,000 individuals found that for each genetically predicted 1 mmol/l reduction in LDL cholesterol maintained throughout life, coronary heart disease was reduced by 55%, independent of the mechanism by which LDL was modified and other known risk factors.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2645847/
    http://content.onlinejacc.org/article.aspx?articleid=1379036

    Thus, the medical community is unanimous that total- and LDL cholesterol are causally related to coronary heart disease and cardiovascular mortality. Hundreds of rigorously controlled metabolic ward studies have established that dietary cholesterol and saturated fat elevate LDL and total cholesterol. The cholesterol raising effects of saturated fat is not the result of how the animal was raised as tropical plant fats high in lauric, myristic and palmitic acids will also raise total and LDL cholesterol.

    Thousands of animal studies showing that saturated fat and dietary cholesterol accelerates atherosclerosis across virtually every type of vertebrate, and that they are the sine qua nons for the dietary modification of experimental atherosclerosis. This includes mammalian, avian and fish species- herbivores, omnivores and carnivores, and over one dozen different species of nonhuman primates. Again this cannot be attributed to the way that the animal was raised as when taking into consideration the amount of antioxidants and carotenoids as well as the lack of cholesterol, tropical plant fats high in lauric, myristic and palmitic acids will also accelerate atherosclerosis in animals to a similar degree as saturated animal fats.

    All in all, we should have no problems accepting the findings from the modelling studies from China Tunisia.

  18. Richard lowfat4ever
    The new European guidelines for diabetes management off from the print. Mediterranean diet OK (fat intake no more than 35% of calories), low-carb not ok. High intake of complex carbohydrates recommended. Big NO for saturated fats.
    http://eurheartj.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/08/29/eurheart...

    Chinese diabetics do probably very well on very-low fat vegetarian diets because of high degree of cultural familiarity with such diets ("the diet of the grandparents"). Diabetes was once non-existent in rural China, with mean fat intake <15% calories, even though energy intake exceeded mean American levels by 30%. Mean TC cholesterol around 130mg/dl (3.4mmol/l.

    Reply: #23
  19. Galina L.
    It looks like that existence of food shortages protected people of China from Diabetes 2. Circumstances of life can make you starve, but in Western societies we have to find out how to eat healthy without torture themselves with a hunger, and a LC diet is working just right.
  20. murray
    Corporate response team "Richard" has a new name this week, yet again, perhaps to fly through spam filters, but it is still a Dick. The bullying tactics employed are familiar to anymore involved in union politics.

    Let's consider just one sample claim: "the medical community is unanimous that total- and LDL cholesterol are causally related to coronary heart disease and cardiovascular mortality" Well, Dr. Thomas Dayspring, who is generally acknowledged as a leading lipodologist and who has financial ties to pharmaceutical and is not against statins, says total cholesterol and LDL-C are useless measurements with regard to cardiovascular risk. (LDL-P, however, is significant, in his view, although he concedes there is no significant data for LCHF people and LDL-P.) So Richard-moniker-of-the-week is being misleading and bullying, yet again.

  21. Francois
    Mezzo,

    I'll add a little to the excellent response by FrankG. Chinese are not the only ones who show diabetes at lower BMIs than Caucasians: SouthEast Asians (Indians) with a "NORMAL" BMI of 24kg/m2, Chinese with a "just entering the overweight zone" BMI of 25kg/m2 and Africans or Afro-Americans with a slightly overweight BMI of 26kg/m2 suffer from a type 2 diabetes risk as high as Caucasians with an "obese" BMI of 30kg/m2 AS LONG AS THIS BMI DOES REFLECT INCREASE ADIPOSE TISSUE AND NOT MUSCLE MASS. BMI was invented by Adolphe Quetelet, a Belgian mathematician who wanted a number to describe his fellow Belgians from their birth to their death. BMI was never intended by Quetelet to describe adiposity. It is much later than the infamous Ancel Keys, known to have "proved" the link between saturated fat and cardiovascular disease by "forgetting" all the countries that did not fit his obsession, changed the name of the Quetelet index to "Body Mass Index" and realized that since most of his fellow Americans did not train, an elevated BMI usually reflected adiposity. Many physicians (myself included) HATE the BMI because it does not reflect lean muscle mass and is essentially appropriate for inactive Caucasians. Other ethnic groups have a different muscle mass and a different fat distribution. Asians and even more Southeast Asians have proportionally lower muscle mass and since fat is lighter than muscle, are what is known as "skinny fat" with increased intra-abdominal fat content. They do suffer from metabolic syndrome and diabetes much earlier than Caucasians and do not tolerate junk food as well.

  22. Z.M.
    Richard: "http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2645847/"

    Notice people, Richard has no problem citing meta-analyses with connections to Pfizer but if you cite anything with connections to the dairy or meat industry he has a serious problem with it. Also, this analysis is an observational analysis even pointed out by the authors:

    "Nevertheless, the relation described by a meta-regression is observational—that is, although the original studies may be randomised trials, a meta-regression across trials does not have the benefit of randomisation to support a causal interpretation and thus risks bias by confounding. "

    There are some good criticisms in the rapid responses section here - http://www.bmj.com/content/338/bmj.b92?tab=responses

    Richard: "Thousands of animal studies showing that saturated fat and dietary cholesterol accelerates atherosclerosis across virtually every type of vertebrate, and that they are the sine qua nons for the dietary modification of experimental atherosclerosis."

    Animal studies do not support your case. These animals suffer from hypercholesterolemia-induced oxidative stress. There are numerous animal studies where MAJOR reductions in atherosclerosis are seen using various treatments even in the presence of extremely high cholesterol, and sometimes even regression. Start doing research for yourself instead of selectively citing studies pushed by vegan ideologues.

  23. Francois
    I am starting to wonder if you should not call yourself RichardCherryPicker4Ever... Biological plausibility is Hogwash as it is felt plausible as long as it is in line with our preconceived ideas or hidden agenda and I have the curious impression you may have one (just suggesting).

    Sure, cholesterol is ALWAYS present in plaque! And it is a good thing. By the way, Ancel Keys tried to accuse cholesterol in his "7 countries study that were many more but that he omitted because they contradicted his hypothesis" but failed to do so. So he found another "villain": saturated fat... This is why he cherrypicked 7 countries to make his perfect relation graph. Richard, is your last name Keys?

    "The country's big low-fat message backfired. The overemphasis on reducing fat caused the consumption of carbohydrates and sugar in our diets to soar. That shift may be linked to the biggest health problems in America today." (Frank Hu, professor of nutrition and epidemiology at the Harvard School of Public Health).

    If we follow your argument, then I strongly suggest we get rid of firefighters as they are always present when there is a fire. Thus if you get rid of firefighters you should, according to your theory, you should get rid of fires! Well cholesterol is one of the body's firefighters. It is NOT cholesterol that causes cardiovascular disease but rather inflammation, caused by HIGH carbs (as evidenced by the switching on of pro-inflammatory genes when carbs make 40% of calories (Arbo I, Brattbakk HR, 2011). Carbs increase insulin secretion which triggers a basketfull of inflammatory reactions. Inflammation is also increased by omega-6 consumption (the ideal ratio is 1 omega-6 for 1 omega-3, the North American ratio is 15-20+ omega-6 for each omega-3 and even higher in Israel. Trans fats also increase inflammation. When inflammation is present, cholesterol gets oxidized and then it is problematic. Saturated fats have nothing to do with cardiovascular disease. Doc Eenfeldt has a non-exhaustive list of well conducted recent studies that clearly demonstrate there is no link between natural saturated fats and cardiovascular disease. Nor is there a link with cholesterol. Get your cholesterol down with statins and you will also reduce prenylated protein (necessary to attach hydrophobic molecules to cell membranes), Tau protein (they stabilize neuron microtubules and prevent Alzheimers), Dolichol, an important component of the brain substantia nigra, co-enzyme Q10, essential for energy production in the mitochondria.

    Get your cholesterol too low and, since it is a precursor to a lot of important hormones, you will also affect levels of DHEA, estradiol, estrone, progesterone and testosterone amongst other hormones. How low is your cholesterol? Do you also suffer from low testosterone?

    As for vegetarians developing plaque while eating cholesterol, it is true. Anitschkow and Chalatow proved it in 1913. (S Anitschkow N, Chalatow S. Ueber experimentelle Cholester-insteatose und ihre Bedeutung fuer die Entstehung einiger pathologischer Prozesse. Zentrbl Allg Pathol Pathol Anat 1913;24:1–9). Which proves that when you feed a species a non appropriate diet, you make it sick. Rabbits are obligatory herbivores and NEVER eat cholesterol. But take any diabetic carnivore - or omnivore, REDUCE dramatically its carb intake and INCREASE A LOT its meat and saturated fat intake and diabetes and obesity will disappear.

    We are omnivores, meant to eat meat, vegetables and fruits. We cannot process on the long term the gigantic amount of carbs that grains and plain sugar (40 teaspoons on average per day for the modern teen). We will always develop inflammation when the carb intake gets over 40% of the caloric intake. Always.

    Cherry-picking makes you lose credibility.

    "The difficulty lies not in the new ideas but rather in escaping the old ones." John Maynard Keynes - 1883-1946

  24. Healthy Longevity
    Z.M.

    The findings from this meta-regression study are supported by other recent findings from mendelian randomization studies, randomized controlled trials attempting to elevate HDL in the presence of low LDL, and even recent prospective cohorts studies. These studies have repeatedly shown that simply modifying HDL cholesterol concentrations does not necessarily translate into changes in the risk of coronary events, whereas the opposite was found for LDL concentrations. This is not to say that modifying the properties of HDL will not modify the risk of CHD, but that simply modifying the concentrations of HDL will not necessarily translate into benefit.

    As Richard is probably already aware, experimental atherosclerosis has been induced in animals, including non-human primates by cholesterol feeding even in the absence of hypercholesteramia. Oxidative stress seems to be your scapegoat whenever confronted with strong evidence supporting a causal association between LDL cholesterol and CHD. As many of these studies demonstrate, the association between LDL and coronary events is consistent regardless of the mechanism by which LDL was modified. This is not to say that LDL is the only risk factor that modifies the risk of CHD, but to suggest that it has little or no effect is just plain denialism.

    Reply: #25
  25. Paul
    Pharma-Trolls, you can cite as many meta-theta-analfabeta studies as you want. I personally know people, including my father, whose advanced coronary disease reversed after few months on LCHF. These people now lead normal, healthy lives. If they were to follow your advice, most of them would be dead by now and remaining would spend their savings on surgeries and your drugs.
  26. FrankG
    Oh look! Richard (tricky-dicky) AKA Plant Positive, AKA Healthy Longevity AKA etc.. etc.. etc... is playing [tag-team] with himself... yet again. ((yawn))

    In order for your position to be convincing, first you need credibility. You have NONE.

  27. Healthy Longevity
    @Francois – Your comments are a joke. You use absolute language even though it is obvious that you do not know what you are talking about.

    You appear to be confusing the Seven Countries Study which was a longitudinal study with an earlier cross sectional analysis of 6 countries from 1953. In the longitudinal seven countries study found that saturated fat was significantly associated with CHD when adjusted for sugar intake, but sugar intake was not significantly associated when adjusted for saturated fat intake.

    Look at other countries that have replaced carbohydrates with fat – Sweden, China, India etc. These populations are certainly not losing weight.

    Free-ranging mammalians species typically have an average LDL of <50mg/dl and people with mutations that cause life-long levels of LDL <15mg/dl display normal growth and development and even appear to experience increased longevity.

    It is not only obligate herbivores which develop atherosclerosis when fed dietary cholesterol. Cholesterol feeding has induced atherosclerosis in omnivorous mammalian (including more than one dozen species of nonhuman primates), avian and fish species. Experimental atherosclerosis studies in nonhuman primates consistently show the exact of what you claim, benefit of replacing saturated fat and cholesterol with sugar and omega 6 fats (although I am not suggesting that refined sugar and seed oils are good).

    Replies: #29, #33
  28. Healthy Longevity
    Yes call people names, it is easy to downplay the evidence by doing this and you are not even required to think very hard. Fine claim victory. I might leave Richard (which is neither myself nor plant positive) to deal with you alone.
    Reply: #30
  29. Paul
    Is the returned cardiovascular health of my father (and the fact that I did not visit any physician since embarking on full LCHF over 7 years ago) a joke as well ?? - than I'll keep joking and you keep satisfaction from exposing people to harm - like suggestion of omega-6 and sugar. Grow-up man, grow-up.
  30. FrankG
    Right.. so accusing folks of "just plain denialism" or saying their comments are "a joke" is NOT calling names? Double-standards much Pee Pee???

    And still trying to claim that HL and Ricky are different people... and yet you speak with the same voice, same tired phrases, same links -- who exactly do you think you are trying to fool here?

    Remember, the good folks here are intelligent people with fully-functioning brains.. not your usual malnourished, vegantarian sheeples.

    Yes do please let the evidence speak for ITSELF... instead of adding your own slanted, agenda-driven interpretation to it.

    Oh and don't let the door hit your A$$ on the way out :-P

  31. Healthy Longevity
    The link between LDL cholesterol and CHD is well established. Suggesting otherwise in the presence of all the evidence does suggest some degree of denialism. It is clear that Francois’s comments are a joke- look at how the Seven Countries Study was confused with a much earlier cross-sectional analysis.

    Yes do please let the evidence speak for ITSELF - which is why virtually every major health authority have come to a very different conclusion with the low carbers on LDL cholesterol and dietary fats.

    Replies: #32, #35
  32. FrankG
    So it is NOT dismissive, unthinking, name-calling if YOU think it is true?

    Well I DO think it is true that all your multiple anonymous aliases -- skulking behind proxy servers -- ARE the same person. So by your own standards then, NOT name-calling.

    And yet you persist with your lies... why? What do you hope to gain? And spare us the bull$hit about "helping" or "offering balance".... your "advice" is KILLING people.

    Why not answer Paul's question about his Father, or explain to me why I am so much healthier since I do almost the exact opposite of what you claim is the proven way to health?

  33. Francois
    Sight. A joke... The only thing "Healthy Longevity" or his alias "Richard lowfat4ever" is right about is the fact there were indeed two "studies" by Keys. One involved 6 countries, the other one seven. One was cross sectional, the other one prospective. So what! As for the rest, there were many more countries but he "failed or forgot" to include them because they contradicted his "theory".

    It is futile to try to discuss intelligently with someone who states all that is contrary to what he states is "denialism" or "a joke" and will only accept as good science heavily subsidized pharma research.

    I'll instead leave you with another joker's quote: "Fat is not the problem. If Americans could eliminate sugary beverages, potatoes, white bread, pasta, white rice and sugary snacks, we would wipe out almost all the problems we have with weight and diabetes and other metabolic diseases."
    Walter Willett, chairman of the Department of Nutrition at the Harvard School of Public Health

    As for me, I'll keep on sticking with the kind of jokers like Willett.

    Oh, by the way? If we are all a bunch of idiots who cannot read a research properly and are all going to die because of the fact we dare to eat natural saturated fat, in accordance with so much excellent recent research, why are you wasting your time? For the pleasure of showing how close-minded you are? If this is the reason, it is a success.

    Wish you well. Hopefully, your body does not react like that of all humans and your high carb diet will not have increased inflammation in your body... But I doubt it.

  34. Z.M.
    Healthy Longevity: "The findings from this meta-regression study are supported by other recent findings from mendelian randomization studies"

    and this meta-analysis does not support any causal relation with regard to LDL or HDL and it couldn't support such a thing as the analysis is observational. The studies individually do not support the idea that LDL is a causal factor. The meta-analysis is a good example of Garbage in, Garbage out.

    Healthy Longevity: " Oxidative stress seems to be your scapegoat whenever confronted with strong evidence supporting a causal association between LDL cholesterol and CHD. As many of these studies demonstrate, the association between LDL and coronary events is consistent regardless of the mechanism by which LDL was modified."

    Wrong. Oxidative stress is not a "scapegoat". Animal experiments using numerous different treatments in numerous different species clearly show it is in fact oxidative stress that is the major issue, not cholesterol. Cholesterol is the victim not the perpetrator.

    Healthy Longevity: "As many of these studies demonstrate, the association between LDL and coronary events is consistent regardless of the mechanism by which LDL was modified. "

    Yes, the association between LDL and coronary events is consistent if you SELECTIVELY CITE or interpret studies in a BIASED manner. Cholesterol and Saturated Fat are innocent until proven guilty. Yet you and Richard seem to have it backwards, interpreting the evidence with the view that cholesterol and saturated fat are already guilty. Due to selective citation and biased interpretations it's no wonder you think the evidence is "consistent".

  35. FrankG
    Regarding this overwhelming, consensus of "health authorities" that you keep claiming Pee Pee.. is the influential NCEP-ATP III the kind of thing you mean?

    National Cholesterol Educational Program - Adult Treatment Panel (ATP) III Update 2004: Financial Disclosure
    http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/cholesterol/atp3upd04_disclose.htm

    No less than seventy two financial conflicts of interest with companies who marketed cholesterol lowering agents at the time, among eight of the nine invited committee members.

    Seventy two..!

    I daresay that they WERE all motivated to come up with the same conclusions eh?!?

    Discussed here by Dr Malcolm Kendrick...
    http://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2013/08/02/who-shall-guard-the-guardians/

    "Of course, as people have stated to me, the mere fact that there were seventy two financial conflicts of interest does not mean that the guidelines themselves were biased. But you know what, I don’t believe it. Imagine if eight Supreme Court judges, ruling on any issue, had seventy two direct financial conflicts of interest to do with that issue…..Well, the outcry would never end."

    If history is anything to go by, science by "consensus" is a flawed paradigm... you only need one person to prove it wrong.

    Reply: #44
  36. Z.M.
    Healthy Longevity: "Experimental atherosclerosis studies in nonhuman primates consistently show the exact of what you claim, benefit of replacing saturated fat and cholesterol with sugar and omega 6 fats"

    and HUMAN studies show that this is BS. No benefits have ever been seen with replacing saturated fat with omega-6 oils. In fact, the opposite is seen with indications of harm due to high intakes of omega-6 oils and contrary to what you may say this was unlikely due to trans fat as the experimental groups not only replaced saturated fat but also rich sources of trans fat and even sometimes reduced other processed foods like pastry, ice-cream and cakes. So if anything the experimental omega 6 groups should have had an advantage not a disadvantage. Your whole extrapolation fails.

  37. Richard lowfat4ever
    HealthyLongevity,

    thanks for pointing out the evidence from prospective cohort studies. We see evidence for the causality of elevated cholesterol and CHD mortality from several independent body of evidence. In animal models, an atherosclerotic artery can be transplanted to a mouse with low cholesterol levels and the lesions start to heal in weeks, if the arteries are transplanted in a mouse with elevated cholesterol the lesions get worse.
    http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/118/6/672.full

    Cholesterol denialists are on par with creationists and the pro-cigarette crew who keep repeating that cigarette's are not harmful since the no adverse effect of smoking has ever been demonstrated in randomized trials on humans (all 3 that tried it have failed).

    Cholesterol, coronary heart disease, and stroke in the Asia Pacific region

    "Numerous other observational studies, particularly in men, have demonstrated a strong, continuous, graded, and independent association between cholesterol and the risk of CHD.1–,6 The current data clearly extend these findings to Asian populations with substantially lower average levels of cholesterol, and confirm that effects are similar in men and women"

    http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/4/563.long

    If DietDoctor was to be hold accountable for the public health, I doubt he could afford the level of skepticism he displayed in regards to the modelling studies I provided.

    BTW, readers of DietDoc's forum should take a look of HealthyLongevity's excellent blog post which was also promoted by John McDougall MD, certified internist.

    The Asian Paradox: End of the Line for Low Carb Diets?
    http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2013nl/aug/travis.htm

    Replies: #39, #40
  38. Richard lowfat4ever
    Elevated Remnant Cholesterol Causes Both Low-Grade Inflammation and Ischemic Heart Disease, While Elevated Low-Density Lipoprotein Cholesterol Causes Ischemic Heart Disease without Inflammation (2013).
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23926208

    Recently published studies: saturated fat in the serum strongly tied with premature mortality.

    1) Plasma Fatty Acid Composition and Incident Ischemic Stroke in Middle-Aged Adults: The Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities (ARIC) Study.

    “Conclusions: In this US cohort of whites, we found significant positive associations of plasma saturated and monounsaturated fatty acids, especially of palmitoleic acid, with ischemic stroke. We also found an inverse nonlinear association between linoleic acid and ischemic stroke.”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23920478

    2) Serum Fatty Acids and Incidence of Ischemic Stroke Among Postmenopausal Women.

    “These findings suggest that individual serum trans, saturated, and monounsaturated fatty acids are positively associated with particular ischemic stroke subtypes, whereas individual n3 and n6 polyunsaturated fatty acids are inversely associated”.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23899914

    3) Comparison of predictive performance of various fatty acids for the risk of cardiovascular disease events and all-cause deaths in a community-based cohort.

    "Our data provides strong evidence to support that plasma saturated fats and trans fats can predict all-cause death and CVD more effectively than other fatty acid markers".

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23958266/

    Reply: #41
  39. FrankG
    Tag... your turn! LOL

    I kinda figured the Ricky multiple-personality would be back now... easier to displace and ignore the pointed question posed to the HL alias.

    HL says "Yes call people names, it is easy to downplay the evidence by doing this and you are not even required to think very hard"

    Ricky-two-face says "Cholesterol denialists are on par with creationists."

    So I'll give fair dues to HL there... clearly Ricky is NOT thinking very hard :-P

    Maybe that is due to a lack of cholesterol for your brain Ricky? You see I DON'T "deny" cholesterol... on the contrary I recognise its vital role in health AND longevity.

    So when are you going to explain Paul's Father's health, Paul's own health, MY health and the many others here who stand as contradictory evidence for what you claim?

    And explain to me who has the time to, seemingly effortlessly, reel of all these biased references, plus your own, well practiced interpretations on them? Who writes your script for you? How much are they paying you? Is it a good gig? Do you sleep well at night knowing that you are contributing to the suffering and death of others?

  40. Paul
    Hey buddy, one of the authors of your reference:
    http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/118/6/672.full
    makes money by selling statins. Are you joking with us or are you that stupid
  41. Paul
    Your point 2) and 3) show that omega-3 industry is almost as big as omega-6. And this is THE ONLY conclusion one can draw from these two references.
    P.S. I know few omega-3 MD, PhD fanatics, they are as "open minded" as vegans.
  42. FrankG
    I really don't see any point in trying to engage these persons (this person) in a discussion of the citations they present. That seems to just bring forth another (scripted) flurry of citations and biased interpretations, without ever responding to the challenges offered to the first set.

    Suffice to say that the "evidence" presented by Ricky, AKA HL, AKA etc... does not stand up to even superficial scrutiny. I have no respect for anything he says.

    Pointed or direct questions are never answered. This person has no credibility and would simply be ignored as a troll if their posts were not so potentially life-threatening

    Reply: #43
  43. Paul
    I totally agree.
  44. FrankG
    This appeal to "consensus" really pisses me off -- as if quantity can make up for quality ...although clearly that is Pee Pee's ploy here, to try and overwhelm us with "evidence".

    It's NOT working :-P

    It is very telling that I have now posted the NCEP-ATP III Financial Disclosure at least three times in response to this troll without any response...

    http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/cholesterol/atp3upd04_disclose.htm

    ...I guess it must be indefensible.

    I also wonder how many realise that these influential guidelines were penned by just a nine member invited committee (eight of them, having between them no less than seventy two financial conflicts of interest at the time). It sure came as a surprise to me that this far-reaching set of recommendations was made, effectively, by such a small group of self-selected individuals.

    And make no mistake, these guidelines although based in the USA are influential internationally. For some reason the USA is viewed as a "leader" in health. I know the same NCEP-ATP III is referenced as authoritative in the Canadian Dyslipidemia Guidelines.

    So this tiny (and biased) committee, justifying their recommendations by using similarly biased science (bought and paid for by the pharmaceutical industry), influences first the USA health policy and then the World's. Then Pee Pee tries to shout us all down with this "consensus".

    I'd be laughing, were it not so very sad to think of the suffering their malicious greed is causing to so many

  45. Wade Henderson
    Simply amazing the lengths people will go to in order for the news to fit into their previously established thinking.

    I spent 6 months in China back in 1984. Traveled all over the country. Since then I have made several more trips and observed the changes.

    Wealth had increased dramatically. They eat more and are gaining weight.
    The most dramatic change in their diet is more animal products.
    Easily triple what it was 29 years ago.
    More sweets and oils as well.

    You simply can't imagine how little extra there was back in 1984. Everyone had just enough and their energy output was significant.

    To blame the increases in diabetes on more rice and wheat and ignoring the large increases in meat, oils, sugars, and dairy is folly.

    I know a couple, one Chinese and one American who have opened a dairy in a major Chinese city. Their production and output has been growing very rapidly, so much so they are selling their other businesses to concentrate on making cheese, sour cream, and other specialty items.
    Still, cheese and dairy are not big items in Chinese diets.

    However, meat has become significant. So much so that as you see in the news they are trying to buy huge American companies that produce pork products to supply the huge demand.

    The increased consumption of animal products in the Chinese diet over the past 15 year is a major change. Dramatic.
    To ignore it as a significant factor in the increased rater of diabetes is to stick one's head in the sand.

    I would ask those that suggest that meat and such play a minor role in the disease rate in China, HAVE you ever visited China? for more than a 2 week vacation?

    Leave your ideology at the border and see what is really happening.

    Replies: #46, #47
  46. FrankG
    What are they eating WITH the meat Wade? Or are you suggesting that the Atkins diet is doing 'em in?

    As you say, they are adopting Western standards for eating. So let's not single out the meat but look at the overall consumption of processed, refined foods; including as you rightly point out "increases in meat, oils, sugars, and dairy"

    If the newly rich, city boys are going to McDs, they are not likely to just be eating a burger sans the bun are they? Bun, "special" sauce, processed cheese, fries, ketchup, soda..? Funny how that is all summed up in the phrase "fancy gong out for a burger?"

  47. FrankG
    "To blame the increases in diabetes on more rice and wheat and ignoring the large increases in meat, oils, sugars, and dairy is folly."

    Where exactly do you see that happening here Wade?

    For the rest: do you subscribe to the school of thought that says people will eat more, simply because there is more available? That we are naturally gluttons who like nothing better than stuffing ourselves beyond satiety? Despite the way we might look in the mirror or the effect on our health?

    Do you think the quality of the food has any part to play?

  48. Richard lowfat4ever
    Some of favorite studies demonstrating the harmful effects of SFA. The denialist keep denialing....

    1) "The molecular basis for the effects of dietary saturated fat on plasma LDL cholesterol levels is well understood. Saturated fat influences the LDL receptor activity of liver cells as described by Brown and Goldstein, dietary saturated fat suppresses messanger RNA synthesis for the LDL receptor. This decreases hepatic LDL receptor activity and slows the removal of LDL from the blood, thus increasing the concentration of LDL cholesterol in the blood. Dietary cholesterol augments the effects of saturated fat further suppressing the hepatic LDL receptor activity and raising the plasma LDL cholesterol levels”.

    –Heart Disease, Environment, Stress and Gender [proceedings of the NATO Advanced Research Workshop on Increase in Coronary Heart Disease in Central and Western Europe: Stress and Gender Related Factors, 20-24 May, 2000, Budapest, Hungary]

    2) Reducing saturated fat intake is associated with increased levels of LDL receptors on mononuclear cells in healthy men and women.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9101427

    3) Consumption of omega-3 fatty acids is not associated with a reduction in carotid atherosclerosis: the Genetics of Coronary Artery Disease in Alaska Natives study

    “Dietary intake of omega-3 FAs in a moderate-to-high range does not appear to be associated with reduced plaque, but is negatively associated with IMT. The presence and extent of carotid atherosclerosis among Eskimos is higher with increasing consumption of saturated FAs"

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18054937

    4) Dietary fat intake and carotid artery wall thickness: the Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities (ARIC) Study.

    ”Wall thickness was measured with B-mode ultrasound. After adjustment for age and energy intake, animal fat, saturated fat, monounsaturated fat, cholesterol, and Keys’ score were positively related to wall thickness, while vegetable fat and polyunsaturated fat were inversely related to wall thickness.These associations persisted after further adjustment for smoking and hypertension and were consistent across the four race and sex groups. Thus, elements of habitual dietary intake were consistently associated with carotid artery wall thickness, compatible with their putatively atherogenic and antiatherogenic properties”.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8178786

    5) Prevention of heart disease: LDL reduction is the outcome of choice? Absolutely yes.

    “There is only one well-established relationship between blood cholesterol lipid fraction and coronary artery disease (CAD) That meets all the Heiss and Tyroler criteria of causality. While there are a number of blood lipid fraction, only LDL cholesterol satisfies These criteria”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16674358

    6) Effects of n-6 PUFAs compared with SFAs on liver fat, lipoproteins, and inflammation in abdominal obesity: a randomized controlled trial.

    "Compared with SFA intake, n-6 PUFAs reduce liver fat and modestly improve metabolic status, without weight loss. A high n-6 PUFA intake does not cause any signs of inflammation or oxidative stress. Downregulation of PCSK9 could be a novel mechanism behind the cholesterol-lowering effects of PUFAs".

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22492369?dopt=Abstract

    Replies: #49, #50
  49. FrankG
    So how does ANY of that explain Paul's Father's health, Paul's own health, MY health and the many others here who stand as contradictory evidence for what you claim?

    Or are you expecting us to deny the evidence of our own lives? Based on what... your lack of credibility? Your skulking around behind multiple aliases? Your "research" that does not stand up to even superficial scrutiny?

  50. Paul
    maybe I am not writing in english (but FrankG seems to understand what I write) let me repeat myself:

    Pharma-Trolls, you can cite as many meta-theta-analfabeta studies as you want. I personally know people, including my father, whose advanced coronary disease reversed after few months on LCHF. These people now lead normal, healthy lives. If they were to follow your advice, most of them would be dead by now and remaining would spend their savings on surgeries and your drugs.

    "A high n-6 PUFA intake does not cause any signs of inflammation or oxidative stress." - omega-3 fanatics will kill you fir it

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